Doing things differently with Rob Sand

[00:00:00] Hillari Lombard: Hey guys, welcome back to moderate party and welcome to 2023. I’m really excited to be back with you guys after our holiday hiatus and man is 2023 already off to quite the start. 

[00:00:09] Alec Baldwin has been charged with negligent homicide. The Harry formerly known as prince released his memoir spare, and it has become the fastest selling nonfiction book of all time. And politically. 

[00:00:19] Things have been pretty wild. Human frat paddle and Bakersfield heartthrob. Kevin McCarthy became a speaker of the house after 15 rounds of voting and an attempted fist fight between Mike Rogers, Tim Burchette and Matt gates. We found out the president Biden or his staff also mishandled classified documents that he got when he was the vice-president. After going after Trump for basically doing the same thing. It’s just not a good look when you’re on record saying things like this. 

[00:00:44] 

[00:00:45] Hillari Lombard: Possibly. Happened. I don’t want anyone could be driving responsible. Oh, I thought what data was in there that may compromise sources and methods, and it’s just a totally irresponsible. 

[00:00:59] 

[00:00:59] Hillari Lombard: And then [00:01:00] you do those things. 

[00:01:01] Economically, we are hurdling towards a fight over the debt ceiling that’s going on right now? Um, internationally, there was a January six style coup in Brazil. And we are only 20 days in, but all that said, I am actually feeling pretty optimistic about 20, 23 and whatever it might hold. 

[00:01:17] I really wanted to start the new year off with something special. Somebody special. Right? In the final weeks of 2022, we spent a lot of time talking with guests about what it means to be a moderate. Or the role of moderates in the current political situation. So I really kind of wanted to change gears and talk to somebody about what it means to be a moderate in elected office. 

[00:01:40] And I’ll be honest with you. It was not easy to find somebody. 

[00:01:44] But then I found Rob. 

[00:01:46] Rob sand is the state auditor for Aila. While he is a Democrat he’s promoted Republicans and independents to the top of his staffing positions in the state auditor’s office. This is by far one of my favorite conversations that I’ve had since starting the show. And I really don’t want to give too [00:02:00] much away, but I will tell you that Rob is something really special. Talking to Rob is weird because it’s like talking to the past and the future at the same time. 

[00:02:08] He has a humanity to him that feels out of place in today’s politics. But an optimism and an ambition that could only point towards the future. 

[00:02:17] But not just any future, the future that I want for the country. Robin. Body’s a lot of what we need desperately in this moment. He’s pragmatic. He’s not polarizing. He’s moderate. And he’s not going to put you to sleep. Promise. 

[00:02:31] Before I let you get into this conversation with Rob, I do want to say a slight housekeeping note. If you listen to the show, you know that at the end of every intro, I’m always telling you that my inbox is open and I want your feedback. But in this episode, I want it even more because we are setting resolutions for this podcast. And making our plan for the year. So I want to hear from you guys. What do you want from the show? In 2023. What would you like more of, less of what ideas interests you what’s on your mind? What would [00:03:00] you like to hear discussed? 

[00:03:01] In the coming year. What kind of guests do you want more of what kind of guests do you want? Less of? Let me know. 

[00:03:07] This is not just my show. It’s our show. 

[00:03:09] So please. Tell me what you think. Send your thoughts, suggestions, comments. And maybe even your resolutions to talk@moderatepartypodcast.com. 

[00:03:19] I’m your host, Hillary Lombard. And this is moderate party. Let’s get started. 

[00:03:23] 

[00:03:30] Hillari Lombard: Rob Sand, thank you so much for joining us on Moderate Party Today.

[00:03:34] Rob Sand: Yeah, happy to be here. Thanks for having me, Hillary.

[00:03:37] Hillari Lombard:  So you grew up in Decor, Iowa, which is a pretty small town. Is that fair to say?

[00:03:42] Rob Sand: you know, it always depends who you ask, uh, to most people. If you’re in a town of seven or 8,000 people and you have to drive an hour to get to a real four four-lane divided highway, that would be counted as a small town, but you know, to kids that grew up in the country. I’m a town [00:04:00] kid cuz I grew up in, in actually in town.

[00:04:02] So

[00:04:03] Hillari Lombard: Okay. Perspective. Um, What impact do you think that that has on you?

[00:04:12] Rob Sand: Huge. Um, I, I massive, you know, they always, the stain is always, you can take, you know, the blank outta the blank, but you can’t take the, and then you do it the other way around. Um, I think that’s, I think that’s totally true. Um, my dad grew up in, in decor, um, his parents grew up in ashen, like 10 miles away.

[00:04:31] Uh, my, both my parents went to college there. There’s a small liberal arts school called Luther College. If, if anybody’s a Dave Matthews fan, great Life album, live at Luther College, recorded in my home phone.

[00:04:42] Hillari Lombard: Oh

[00:04:42] Rob Sand: Um, and then as long as I’m plugging decor, we also have topline Goliath. One of the best beer breweries in the world is now located there, wasn’t there when I was growing up, but, um,

[00:04:53] Hillari Lombard: I will have to look that up.

[00:04:54] Rob Sand: you’ll have to look it up.

[00:04:55] Um, I, I, it had a massive impact on me because I grew [00:05:00] up in this world where, people knew each other. You had a close sense of community. People cared about each other. When, you know when? When one of my teacher’s sons got. Cancer, um, you know, the town raised a ton of money and really helped him out as a family.

[00:05:20] When one of the bike shop owners in town had this kind of weird freak bike accident, like people just volunteered to run his bike shop for him and organized a bike race to help raise money, um, you know, people, there was just such a strong sense of community. And in my own personal experience, I spent like my, my, my junior and senior year of high school getting a skate park built, which is, you know, fairly unusual for a small Iowa town.

[00:05:49] But we, we, it happened, we got it done, and I worked with, you know, business, business owners and community members and high schoolers and [00:06:00] elected officials and local. Uh, you know, like the, the Leslie, nope. Of Decor, Iowa, Rick Edwards was his name, um, to get the thing done. And it really gave me a sense of like, Hey, we can, you know, we can solve our problems if we work together, and of course we’re gonna work together because we care about this place. And I, and I, I’ve never escaped that and I don’t want to, like, I still believe it’s possible because I spent 18 years, uh, living in it.

[00:06:25] Hillari Lombard: do you still define yourself as a small town person? 

[00:06:28] Rob Sand: Uh, yes. I went out east for college. I, my attitude was when I, finished high school, uh, this has been a good 18 years. I, I think I like it here, but I don’t have anything to compare to. Cause I’ve never lived anywhere. And then I lived somewhere else and I was like, yes, Iowa is good.

[00:06:44] I will be going back there. You know, like I, I enjoyed leaving in part because it taught me about what Iowa had to offer in personal experience, which I didn’t have before. But yeah, like I, especially now that we’ve got, we’ve got kids, uh, six year old and an eight year old, like, [00:07:00] if I ever got a green light in my life to move back to decor, I would do it in a heartbeat.

[00:07:05] Um, and even just outside of that, it’s just, You know, I still say hi to people that I don’t know when I pass them on the street. Uh, I don’t want to, I don’t wanna change. I wanna keep doing that. I want that to always be part of what I do, because that’s how I was raised. And it’s nice

[00:07:22] Hillari Lombard: So you go into college, you come back, you enter public service and eventually decide to run for state auditor. Besides the glamor, cash and prestige, why did you want to do that?

[00:07:34] Rob Sand: Of being state auditor the most. Talked about, sought after position. Yeah. I’m a bit of good government. Guy a bit would be an understatement. I’m a good government guy. Um, and, and the state auditor position in Iowa really is about that. The more I looked into it, the more I realized that. So I had been the chief public corruption prosecutor in Iowa for, for seven years, and, uh, I worked with the auditor’s [00:08:00] office because they would conduct public corruption investigations, and I saw a few things that I’d like to do differently.

[00:08:04] Uh, but I didn’t think that like those limited number of things was enough to be like, oh, I’m gonna run for a state office. It seemed like a pretty big leap, but then I read, I actually sat down and read the, the code like chapter 11 of the Iowa Code and uh, which describes the state auditor’s office and gives its its powers and abilities for what it can do.

[00:08:22] and I was like, wow, this, this office can truly be a kind of a powerhouse for improving self-governance. And Hillari, like I don’t know why this isn’t an issue that more Democrats don’t talk about. Like if we think that we can solve our problems together through our system of self-governance, then we should be hawks on making sure that that self-governance system is working.

[00:08:44] we should be going after ringing out every ounce of waste, fraud, and abuse. Holding people accountable from positions of trust and power when they abuse that trust and power and really making sure that we can maintain and, and at this point, rebuild trust in this system. [00:09:00] Um, and so to me, I, I just, I love the idea of trying to focus. Having good, good processes, better processes, and having accountability for people in positions of trust and power. Because I think that so often we pick on the folks at the bottom of the rung, um, and you know, everyone there. We, we want to have accountability for everybody, but if we’re gonna have accountability for everybody, the, the place where we’re we, I think seem to miss it right now. Where we need it most is actually the people at the top.

[00:09:30] Hillari Lombard: I think especially. when it comes to financial accountability. I was excited to talk to you because I think that you’re one of the few, democratic figures that’s making a big point out of fiscal responsibility, 

[00:09:42] Rob Sand: Yeah, and I don’t get, why not? You know, we always like to say nobody likes paying taxes, you know, and I think that’s true. I think that’s true, but most people, the vast majority of people recognize that, you know, you want to have streets that are smooth. You want to have a sewer system that functions well.

[00:09:59] You [00:10:00] know, uh, you want to have schools that are educating your kids. Uh, but I don’t, it’s such a simple thing to say, look, We wanna make sure that when you pay taxes, that money is getting used responsibly. That we are reducing waste, fraud, and abuse, and that we are improving our ability to actually accomplish things.

[00:10:23] Right? I mean, it’s like the same thing that most of us do in our day with the minutes that we have.

[00:10:28] Hillari Lombard: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:29] Rob Sand: You know, you don’t, if I’m gonna, if I have to go, if I have two errands to run across town, who among us is gonna be like, well, I’m just gonna go in the morning and then I’ll come home again and then I’ll go again in the afternoon.

[00:10:39] Cuz I don’t know, whatever. 

[00:10:41] Hillari Lombard: Yeah, I’ve got time. 

[00:10:42] Rob Sand: Yeah. 

[00:10:43] Right. Yeah. We don’t have time. I don’t have time. I have so much to do all, all of us have so much to do and I don’t, I don’t know why Democrats don’t focus on that more like we should. We should really try to be efficient. We should push efficiency because we want people to understand that we respect. The sacrifices that they’re making with those tax [00:11:00] dollars. That’s your sweat, that’s your sore back. That’s your time away from your family. We should always be focusing on how much we respect that because we’re all paying them together,

[00:11:10] Hillari Lombard: Respect is such a good point because like I am so protective of my money. Like I’m basically smg like sitting on my little mountain of coins, . But I feel okay about taxes if I understand what they’re paying for and I’m confident that they’re not being wasted.

[00:11:24] So I, I mean, I think it feels very straightforward to me as well. But for some reason it just seems to be like this issue, we can’t talk.

[00:11:31] Rob Sand: I don’t get it. I don’t, I, I really don’t. and so then the, then the conversation ends up just being, you know, oh, are, are we gonna get a tax cut or not? 

[00:11:41] But the, the conversation about tax cuts is never honest either, because the question at the end of the day is, are we making the investments that we need to make?

[00:11:49] Hillari Lombard: Well, and also like taxes are government’s income, right? So if we wanna pay for all of this stuff, like how are we gonna pay for it?

[00:11:54] Rob Sand:  And we, we need to have the conversation about what it, what the stuff is,

[00:11:57] Hillari Lombard: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:58] Rob Sand: right, and, and how we’re gonna pay [00:12:00] for the stuff. But the piece of it that I feel like we oftentimes miss out on is, Yeah, I, I, I actually do think that it would be good for Iowa to invest more in teacher pay. We lose actually the great, great example decor is right next to Minnesota.

[00:12:17] Uh, one of my high school buddies, uh, is one of my good friends. Um, he works in autobody shop and his wife is a teacher and she teaches across the state line of Minnesota. And in the past, had sort of been hoping for the right position to come open in the decor community schools so that she could cut the commute out.

[00:12:34] And, and now she’s actually like, no, actually I want to teach in Minnesota. The situation there educationally as for me as a teacher is just better. And so you look around Iowa, we’re losing teachers. Uh, we have a teacher shortage right now. And like to me that’s a question of like, well, okay, are we gonna, you know, oh, well, what are our taxes going to?

[00:12:51] Well, right now we, we need to invest. in our schools and those investments are good investments because they will get us returns. Returns of [00:13:00] having better teachers, returns of having better education.

[00:13:03] But we also missed that piece of it too. We don’t often talk about the investment aspect of it. Oh my goodness.

[00:13:08] Great example. Iowa is sitting on billions of dollars as a surplus right now, and we have a, a childcare crisis in this.

[00:13:19] Hillari Lombard: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:20] Rob Sand: all across, and we have a workforce crisis. And by the way, these are related. A lot of people aren’t working because childcare in Iowa is so expensive that you may as well stay home, which is a lovely choice.

[00:13:31] Hillari Lombard: Yeah. If you choose to make 

[00:13:33] Rob Sand: Yeah. if it makes sense for you, great. You get to raise your kids. That’s awesome. But we could solve our workforce crisis. There’s po There’s a lot of people who would like to be doing some work, but they’re like, well, childcare is so expensive. If it’s gonna be a wash for me, I’d rather hang out with my kids than not hang out with them and pay someone else to do it.

[00:13:50] If not, if I’m not making money. So we have this workforce crisis. We don’t have enough bodies to do. We have a childcare crisis that adds the workforce crisis we just [00:14:00] passed. We have this huge budget surplus. It would’ve taken only 3 million investment from the state of Iowa from that surplus to then get in return, 30 million feder federal dollars to go towards 

[00:14:15] our childcare crisis. 

[00:14:17] Hillari Lombard: why do I feel like Iowa did not make 

[00:14:18] this 

[00:14:19] choice? 

[00:14:20] Rob Sand: This is not a great choice. When we talk about investments, it’s like, okay, I have an offer for you. if you put up this amount of money, I will put in 10 x that amount of money.

[00:14:28] Hillari Lombard: Yeah. 

[00:14:29] Rob Sand: Find me. Anyone in the private sector who’s like, 

[00:14:32] no, I don’t want that deal. 

[00:14:33] Hillari Lombard: Right. That’s a 

[00:14:34] beautiful deal. 

[00:14:35] Rob Sand: That’s a beautiful deal. That’s amazing.

[00:14:37] And yet here our governor was like, no. Mm mm-hmm. Don’t wanna do.

[00:14:41] Hillari Lombard: why 

[00:14:41] Rob Sand: well, uh, you know, hoarding all the money to then say, oh, look how responsible I’ve been, which I’m a Christian. That makes me think of the parable of the talents.

[00:14:51] Are you familiar with that one?

[00:14:53] Hillari Lombard: I’m not, but I’d love to be educated. 

[00:14:54] Rob Sand: All right. So, There were three servants, uh, to the same master, [00:15:00] master left town.

[00:15:00] Gave them each a talent to sum of money and was like, Hey, take care of this while I’m gone. First one went and invested it got a big return. Second one went and invested it got a little return. Third one bared it in the ground. And the, the moral of the story here is master came back and was very happy with the first two, and very unhappy with the last one.

[00:15:16] It’s like, I gave you this money and you did nothing with it. You literally buried it in the ground. Um, . And so that one was like thrown into the outer darkness. There was weeping, there was ging of teeth. It 

[00:15:27] was not great for the third servant. 

[00:15:29] Hillari Lombard: Was this in the Old Testament by chance? 

[00:15:32] Rob Sand: no, actually it is in the New Testament. 

[00:15:34] Hillari Lombard: oh. But that’s when we’re all about peace and love. 

[00:15:37] Rob Sand: It sounds kinda old Testament 

[00:15:38] though, doesn’t it?

[00:15:41] but this is it’s exactly what just happened here. Like taxpayers are the master here. They gave the state of Iowa their money. And now instead of making this investment and getting 30 million from people in New York and California, whose elected representatives already offered it to the state of [00:16:00] Iowa, we’re just being like, 

[00:16:01] nah. 

[00:16:03] And that to me is, that’s, it’s foolish. Yeah. Let’s impoverish our state in, in, in comparison to all of the states around us, and we’ve done this now multiple occasion. and I just, you know, that, that to me does not make sense like you’re offering to invest in my state. My answer would be, thank you for the investment.

[00:16:20] Yes, I will bring that, those dollars here to Iowa to be spent on improving Iowans lives and improving their incomes. Not, not too, not too 

[00:16:29] complicated. 

[00:16:31] Hillari Lombard: So why didn’t you run for Governor

[00:16:35] Rob Sand: Hmm. I am, 

[00:16:39] I am. New in this job. Right?

[00:16:44] Let’s, let’s take a step back here. Politics is stupid. Campaigns are way too long. The decision making time for campaigns, you know, is like way before election day.

[00:16:55] At that point, I was still like, you know, two and a half, three years into my new job being state auditor, [00:17:00] which I, which is a job I enjoy.

[00:17:02] I like it very much. Um, I not like, I like what I’m doing. I don’t feel. Like I need to change what I’m doing. And in addition to that, like again, I think I already mentioned our kids, they’re six and eight. Hillary, like 

[00:17:23] it’s awesome right now. 

[00:17:25] Like 

[00:17:26] if you think about. they they are. If you think about it this way, this is my mantra and I tell my, I remind myself this when I’m thinking about like what I’m gonna do and like, what’s my week gonna look like?

[00:17:35] I’m like, no diapers, no naps, no teenagers like I can do. We are in the eye of the hurricane. We’ve gone through the hard part and the, and the next hard part will come. But right now, sunny skies like life is good. I don’t, I. 

[00:17:52] Be here, I wanna enjoy this. Like, I want to have a, a chunk of this where I can be like, yeah.

[00:17:57] I’m like, this is [00:18:00] really good. You know? And, uh, and that’s super important to me. The, the, the, the piece of it that when I thought about it, um, worry me the most was not the idea of losing, like, you know, anyone who runs for office. The vast majority of them lose at some point. Um, it was actually the idea of winning and then just being like, not around as 

[00:18:25] much 

[00:18:26] Hillari Lombard: So what I’m 

[00:18:27] hearing is that when they’re prickly teens, you’re gonna run for Governor and get the hell outta here,

[00:18:33] Rob Sand: or I might still continue to be liking my job,

[00:18:36] Hillari Lombard: right? 

[00:18:37] Rob Sand: but like right now, there were like in my life, very few reasons. Change what I was doing, 

[00:18:45] Hillari Lombard: right? 

[00:18:47] Rob Sand: It’s such a weird thing to imagine this. We have, you know, we have, we have so little trust in people in elected office. Like I see, I read about people and I see their decisions and I ascribe [00:19:00] such and such motives to them, and I’m like, wait a minute. . Other people are doing that to me, and I find it annoying.

[00:19:04] I should chill

[00:19:07] Hillari Lombard: Oh, that’s very self-aware. 

[00:19:09] Rob Sand: Yeah. Well, but it’s because we have this, you know, very stupid ineffective system that, you know, pushes us to only have two choices 

[00:19:18] Hillari Lombard: Sometimes I wish I knew less about my politicians because it’s like I’ll get all of this information about them and I can feel myself just judging the shit out of them, and I would not be judging them this way if I wasn’t getting this constant feed about like what they’re 

[00:19:32] doing. 

[00:19:32] Rob Sand: Familiarity breeds contempt. That’s what that is. Hillary 

[00:19:35] Hillari Lombard: I’m assuming that you’re quoting the, uh, Taylor Swift lyric, not the famous phrase,

[00:19:41] Rob Sand: I, I didn’t, I am, those are just three words. I don’t know where they came from. , 

[00:19:45] Hillari Lombard: uh, you heard it here first. Rob Sand, massive. Taylor Swift fan. 

[00:19:50] Rob Sand: oh, funny story. When we, when put it back simply, I liked my job and I liked my family. There was literally one guy, uh, who like was asking me about [00:20:00] that, who like does a lot of this stuff, like consultant kind of guy was like, well, do you like being around your family?

[00:20:04] And I was like, Yes. He’s like, well, great. I mean, there’s people who run to get away from their family. I was like, oh, 

[00:20:12] that’s, that’s super

[00:20:13] sad. 

[00:20:16] Hillari Lombard: Yikes. 

[00:20:17] Rob Sand: So 

[00:20:17] sad.

[00:20:19] Hillari Lombard: I don’t wanna vote for people that are trying to get away from their family 

[00:20:23] that’s just such a bummer. I can’t imagine being like, I must seek elected office just to get out of this house.

[00:20:31] . 

[00:20:31] Okay, so tell me about The PIE Program.

[00:20:35] Rob Sand: I, I do You have the rest of the day because I love this thing. So I have lots of bad puns here to describe this program. Um, PI stands for Public Innovations and Efficiencies. And if there, if there really is one reason I ran for state auditor, it was to have this program, um, because like I said, I saw like, wow, this, this office could really be like this engine for efficiency, this engine for improving the, [00:21:00] the, the responsible use of taxpayer dollars. and we’re, it’s not doing it right now. Like, wow, what a cool opportunity. And I had been work, you know, criminal prosecutor, you never have a happy day. Like everything is very dark. And this was an opportunity to get up and have a job where like every day I could go into work and be like, I’m gonna find another way to save money today, and then we’re gonna put it into this program, or we’re gonna spread the word and get people to start doing it.

[00:21:22] And so that’s what the PIE program does. Uh, it stands for Public Innovations and Efficiencies. We have about a 10 page list of best practices, and we send it out to cities, counties, and school districts. At this point, we ask them to check yes for what they’re doing, check no for what they’re not, and send it back in.

[00:21:38] That gives the public a degree of transparency about what efforts are being made. 

[00:21:42] Um, but then in addition to that, every year we have pun number one, oh, wait, pun number one actually is what we call that, that checklist. It’s called the pie chart.

[00:21:50] Pun number two. You know, they, they come in and they fill it out every year. That allows us, every year to then have a pie contest where we’re literally, you know, we’re [00:22:00] comparing. Cities to cities of the same size and, and counties to counties of the same size and saying, Hey, here’s, here’s who’s doing the best.

[00:22:07] Here’s who’s the most improved, like, good for you. Which also, I mean, this goes back to that idea of like, Hey, we should believe in the idea of self-governance, that we can do this, like we can handle this stuff. And so when we lift up people who are good public servants across the state of Iowa, I. Can do a little bit to restore trust to pe, help people understand like, oh, hmm, cool.

[00:22:29] You’re doing a good job of saving my money. That’s unexpected and awesome. 

[00:22:33] Thanks. 

[00:22:34] Hillari Lombard: Yes.

[00:22:35] What Happens if you win the pie contest?

[00:22:39] Rob Sand: I bring pie to your 

[00:22:40] town. 

[00:22:41] Hillari Lombard: for 

[00:22:41] Rob Sand: Actual edible pie? Yeah. Well, a pie. I bring API to your 

[00:22:46] town. 

[00:22:47] We have a meeting, um, if it’s a city, if it’s your city that won, like, you know, we cut it in as many slices as we need for whoever shows up.

[00:22:56] It’s typically like city council, mayor, maybe like the city manager. [00:23:00] And we take a picture with a certificate and the pie, hopefully that goes in the local paper so people can do, see that you did a good job. And then we have 

[00:23:09] Hillari Lombard: That’s such a wholesome end to that 

[00:23:12] Rob Sand: It’s so fun. It’s so fun. It is the happiest, I mean, you wanna talk about like doing something where you’re like, I’m making the positive difference today.

[00:23:20] You’re literally g giving out rewards for people for saving taxpayer money.

[00:23:23] Hillari Lombard: And such wholesome rewards. It’s not cash. It’s like a nice 

[00:23:27] Rob Sand: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s very enjoyable. And then the other thing that we do in the program is we collect ideas from across the state.

[00:23:36] That people have implemented for saving money. And then we add them to the chart so that everybody else in the state over the next year, two years, three years, can read about them and actually implement them.

[00:23:47] Hillari Lombard: can you gimme some examples? 

[00:23:49] Rob Sand: yeah. Uh, Dickinson County, uh, built a courthouse chiller. So electricity in the daytime is expensive. Electricity at night is cheap. This is true everywhere you go.[00:24:00] 

[00:24:00] Your air conditioning only clicks on in the daytime when it’s getting. Once it’s on, it both creates coldness and blows the coldness, right?

[00:24:09] You can take half of that, the creation of coldness and move it to nighttime electricity by basically building like a giant ice machine underground. And so you make all your ice at night with cheap electricity, and then when your AC kicks on, you click on a fan and then you’re only needing to do the fan part.

[00:24:25] So it basically reduces the load on ac. Substantially enough that they think they’re gonna have a eight year payback for every dollar they invested, and then it should be operating for 30 to 40 years, at least after that, just making money. Yeah. 

[00:24:38] Yeah. So, If you, if you, dear listener, go to, uh, auditor.iowa.gov/pi.

[00:24:46] You can download the pie chart. You can call Chris in Dickinson County and ask for more information about how the courthouse chiller works, cuz Chris’s phone number is in there. She’ll tell you about it. You could call her and say, thanks for being a good public servant. I would love for [00:25:00] one person to do that for listening to this podcast. 

[00:25:02] Hillari Lombard: pie. guys.

[00:25:03] Rob Sand: Send Her pie. Um, those Hillary, those good ideas, they’re called pie 

[00:25:09] recipe. 

[00:25:10] Hillari Lombard: No, 

[00:25:12] Rob Sand: Yeah. Somebody, Somebody, cooked something up. .

[00:25:15] Hillari Lombard: Oh. .I, I like the follow up as 

[00:25:18] well.

[00:25:19] Rob Sand: Yeah. 

[00:25:20] Hillari Lombard: Do you consider yourself to be an innovator?

[00:25:24] Rob Sand: um, I guess my, I guess I would have to say no in a way, because otherwise my immediate answer to that question would be yes. I’m looking for good ideas. , I want to do good things. Oftentimes there’s established channels for doing that. Sometimes there’s not. And if there’s not, you know? Yeah, I, I mean, I guess in one sense I ran four state auditor to innovate, and then once I got to the office, I innovated.

[00:25:51] So I, I suppose I could say yes.

[00:25:53] Hillari Lombard: huh 

[00:25:54] Rob Sand: Um, I’m just, I would consider myself a do-gooder, which I realize [00:26:00] is not fashionable these days. but, uh, I, I would consider myself a do-gooder. I wanna do good. And sometimes that means you innovate and sometimes that means you see something that already exists and try to do that to do good. So. There’s so much cynicism and so much like skepticism. and that’s fine for everyone who likes cynicism and skepticism, 

[00:26:23] Hillari Lombard: That’s fine for everyone that wants to have a bad day every day. 

[00:26:26] Rob Sand: yeah. Oh, AKA. 90% of Twitter users 

[00:26:31] Hillari Lombard: Yes. Twitter is only here to have a bad day. 

[00:26:35] Rob Sand: Yeah. And then make sure that if you had a good day, I’m gonna remind you that I’m having a 

[00:26:38] bad one 

[00:26:39] also.

[00:26:40] Hillari Lombard: Yes. And that, uh, systemic evils exist 

[00:26:42] nationwide, 

[00:26:43] so.

[00:26:44] Rob Sand: that’s right. And you should only be thinking about them all the time. If you have a, if you’re having a good day, it’s because you’re not as morally, um, concerned as I am.

[00:26:54] Hillari Lombard: Right. Having a good day is a privilege. 

[00:26:55] Rob Sand: Yeah which, you know, like is so [00:27:00] disempowering to people who are unprivileged and yet love their lives 

[00:27:04] Okay. So when I hear you talk about your ideas, they seem very common sense in straightforward. But in researching you, I found that implementing your ideas, it doesn’t always go smoothly and you’ve had to fight pretty hard sometimes. What do you think is the most common pushback that you get to new ideas? 

[00:27:19] Rob Sand: I think because I’m in an elected office, I get hit with people’s skepticism of me because I’m in an office and we have this deep-seated, perhaps natural, but at this point, counterproductive skepticism of the ability to do good and the ability to be good in an, uh, in an elected position. and I think that’s because our, I mean I, I, I’m a big advocate for electoral reform. I really like the idea of open primaries where independents get an equal right to participate and then rank choice voting in the [00:28:00] general so that your choices are not just the lesser of two evils,

[00:28:02] Hillari Lombard: Mm-hmm. 

[00:28:03] Rob Sand: but the system that we have now. Just incentivizes so much awful behavior and removes so much accountability from elected officials that I feel like most of the pushback that I get, honestly I can, while people are happy to push back on me in aspects that are personal and that’s not fun. I still think a lot of it is just rooted in the fact that like we hate our political system and so we end up having like a dislike of kind of anyone that’s 

[00:28:31] in it to some degree, 

[00:28:32] which is 

[00:28:33] sad. 

[00:28:33] Hillari Lombard: do you think that that contempt creates the result that we despise?

[00:28:39] Rob Sand: I mean, it’s cer certainly a feedback loop. It builds on itself. You know, we get, we get bad results. We have, we have bad choices. We only have two choices, and so we make a. Unhappy choice. We then have a system that doesn’t really a award much accountability. You know, your, your, your, your, your district, your state has to be truly [00:29:00] so balanced for there to be any accountability.

[00:29:02] Otherwise, it’s just the letter behind your name and that determines, you know, whether or not you get to stay an office or not, and whether or not you get primaried or not. But it’s really just that, it’s not like you have to, you should, you should have to be out there solving problem. but what it’s become is a lot of just partisanship.

[00:29:19] And so it’s like, well, I’m in the right party in this place and so I’m gonna just get to keep doing this job because people like the color of the shirt I’m wearing 

[00:29:29] Yeha, 

[00:29:30] Hillari Lombard: but that’s not entirely true for your story, right? I mean, I think that if anything in Iowa, the letter behind your name was not 

[00:29:36] helpful. 

[00:29:38] Rob Sand: Correct. Um, my state, I think, fundamentally is a swingy state, and I think that’s still true. But we have, we have un undoubtedly taken, uh, a turn in a Republican, uh, Republican direction recently. 

[00:29:53] But it’s still true overall. I think about this, you know, I, well, look, I’ll, I’ll [00:30:00] tell you a story. I go to every county, every year, all 99 counties in Iowa. Um, everywhere I go, I find people who are in the political minority and where they live, whose elected representatives treat them like garbage because they know that that person has no actual impact on their electoral future. And so you can go to. Really Republican areas in Iowa and find Democrats whose elected officials won’t respond. Like don’t. Don’t give them the courtesy of a response when they reach out to them with a phone call or an email. You will find that same thing in Des Moines where there’s elected officials here who won’t respond to their Republican constituents.

[00:30:43] There are even elected officials who will like post and mock publicly people from the other side who contact them because they know that electorally under this system, they don’t, there’s no. Incentive, um, to do the right thing. And so [00:31:00] then the question is, if there’s no character that’s pushing you to do the right thing, or if you’ve become cynical, then there’s less doing of the right thing. 

[00:31:07] The doing of the right thing here. By the way, Hillary is acknowledging the humanity of people that you disagree with. Just so we’re clear for everybody 

[00:31:14] out there listening.

[00:31:14] Hillari Lombard: Yes. Uh, giving him the benefit of the doubt. I mean, I live in California, so you can imagine how. respect and political power Republicans get in the state, um, when it comes to statewide power. And I think that that is tough. I just think that no matter where you live, you should have a responsive representative regardless of your party.

[00:31:34] It’s just 

[00:31:35] Rob Sand: Yeah, and, and what I, what I love about the Open primaries and a ranked choice system is even if you are not my first choice, the fact that I could either list you as my second choice or my 

[00:31:49] fifth gives you the incentive to treat me like a human. 

[00:31:53] Hillari Lombard: right to 

[00:31:53] Rob Sand: Which is just like, it makes, honestly, it makes politics more like, I think like real life.

[00:31:57] It makes Hillary, it makes politics 

[00:31:59] more [00:32:00] like growing up in decor. 

[00:32:01] Hillari Lombard: Tell me, bring it home. 

[00:32:02] Rob Sand: Well, Well, you have to, you, you, you, you work with people, you respect them and you understand that like people talk and if you treat people like garbage, like pretty soon people are, Not gonna be excited to be inviting you to their parties.

[00:32:17] Not gonna be excited to be, uh, having your kid on their sports team because people know that you’re a jerk because there’s actual consequences. Right. Whereas in politics right now, it’s like, yeah. You know, if you’re, if you’re the, the Democrat in the super blue district, you can treat all the Republicans.

[00:32:34] If it’s 40% of your constituents, you can treat them like garbage

[00:32:39] and you will pay no price for it. And in fact, some of the people will be like, 

[00:32:44] Hillari Lombard: Yeah. 

[00:32:44] Rob Sand: that, you know, be me, be mean to those people. And so it’s like this perverse incentive in instead of a system where there’s real accountability, where we expect, you know, our elected officials to, to treat people the way we teach our kids, to treat people.

[00:32:56] You know, like, be nice. It’s, it’s the right thing to do also, if [00:33:00] you can’t remember that, it’s the right thing to do. You want those people to be nice to you .

[00:33:02] later, 

[00:33:03] you know? .

[00:33:04] Hillari Lombard: Well, and I think it affects the policies they push too. Like if you’re in a, a deep blue district, you can push for things that you would not necessarily have to have the burden of implementing.

[00:33:15] because you’re speaking to a constituency that is so ideologically aligned to you, and you don’t have to speak to those that aren’t. 

[00:33:22] Rob Sand: And, and, and, and, and the exact same thing on the other side

[00:33:25] too. And, and what I, what I love about this is I think it pushes us towards popularism,

[00:33:32] where, and, uh, we would actually have elected officials who have incentives to actually do popular things and accomplish them.

[00:33:40] as opposed to being like, well, you know, even though 70% of people want that, it’s not super popular in my own party, so I’m not gonna do it cuz I don’t want to give the other party a win.

[00:33:52] Hillari Lombard: Right or have to face that very vocal 30%.

[00:33:58] Rob Sand: Yes, 

[00:33:58] correct. [00:34:00] 

[00:34:00] Hillari Lombard: Um, so let me ask you, cuz you’ve been very vocal about political 

[00:34:02] polarization. 

[00:34:04] Rob Sand: Mm-hmm. 

[00:34:05] Hillari Lombard: Um, did that have any impact in your life before you became the state auditor?

[00:34:11] Rob Sand: Yes. Um, when I was in college, I went to Brown Super Liberal School in Rhode Island. I actually found that I was like, not hearing enough of in, in terms of my education. Obviously it existed in the world. , but in my education, I wasn’t seeing enough studying of conservative thought conservatism. so that, one of the wonderful things at Brown is you can make a class on anything you want as long as you have, like you can put forward a legitimate reason that, you know, a panel approves.

[00:34:51] It’s like, yeah, that’s academically rigorous. And that’s a good case to have a class like that. Go ahead and have a class like that. And so I put together a class on [00:35:00] Conservat. and I recruited like the one super outspoken conservative newspaper columnist. I had been thinking about this idea, and then I was walking down a dorm and saw his, I didn’t know who that he lived there, but walked past and like, recognized him sitting at his computer from his picture in the newspaper and like went backwards and was like, Hey, you’re Stephen Beal.

[00:35:20] And he, and you could tell, he was like, oh. What am I gonna get yelled at about this time? And I went into, and I, it was like, I would like to make a class on conservative thought. Will you help me build the syllabus? You obviously know more about, you know, what the canon is than I do. And I, it took some convincing for him to be like, is this a joke?

[00:35:37] Like, are you trying to pull one over on me? What? What are you trying to do here? . Um, but that all happened very quickly. People say, I have an honest face. It worked at that time. Um, and he, so he was like, yeah, I would love to do this. This is a great idea. And we got a, a teacher to teach it. We got a class that was pretty balanced, you know, democratic, Republican, independent, you know, [00:36:00] conservative, liberal, uh, moderate, whatever.

[00:36:03] And it was wonderful because all these conversations we would have every week were like two and a half hours of discussing a reading and finding that. There were a lot of things that we disagreed on, but also a lot of things we agreed on, and oftentimes it was really, it was like, you know, we, we agreed on what the destination was and we had passionate disagreements about what the route to 

[00:36:20] get there was.

[00:36:21] Hillari Lombard: what made you wanna do that? Like you said that you realized that you were not getting, or you weren’t hearing conservative thought. What is it that you think made that stand out as a problem to you? Because I think that many others in that situation would not necessarily notice that they weren’t getting conservative thought, and if they did notice, wouldn’t be 

[00:36:40] bothered by it. 

[00:36:42] Rob Sand: Yeah, like I remember specifically well. , I guess, I don’t know if this was before or after, but I do remember taking a class called Society in Inequality. Two things I care about. I think two things that most people care about. Uh, and, and being like, why aren’t we reading the Wealth of Nations? Like, seems [00:37:00] like Adam Smith might have something to say about society in inequality.

[00:37:04] So, you know, that’s, that’s one example. Um, but I just, I don’t, you know, I want to believe things that are. like to me, my ideology is mostly towards, again, like doing good and like believing in the truth. And I’m, I’m very well aware, you know, of the idea that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[00:37:26] But I think a lot of times that is people who are wanting to do good but aren’t really reexamining whether or not what they’re doing is actually good or not. They just, they’ve, they’ve, they’ve got something, they’ve clung to it or maybe it’s been passed to them or something else. Or, or maybe it would’ve been good some time ago, but society changes and it wouldn’t be a good idea anymore.

[00:37:47] And so I think a, a regular reexamining of the things that we think is a good thing to do. And so to me, that class was partially just like, I wanna see what is out there. I wanna be, I wanna, I wanna learn. I don’t know if any of these ideas will convince [00:38:00] me or not, but I want to learn about them to see if they, to 

[00:38:02] see if they do.

[00:38:04] Hillari Lombard: do you think that you are still implementing. That same type of thing now. I mean, you’re not at Brown anymore, but you are out here talking about a team of rivals and, um, elevating people that have different 

[00:38:17] political parties. 

[00:38:19] Rob Sand: great point. Yes. Um, so yeah. Good. Uh, that’s a good 

[00:38:25] softball right down the middle 

[00:38:26] Hillari Lombard: there, 

[00:38:26] you go. 

[00:38:26] There you 

[00:38:27] go. 

[00:38:27] Rob Sand: Uh, but it’s been two weeks. It’s, uh, so we, uh, yeah. So my, my senior team in the auditor’s office in Iowa is a democrat and independent and a re. I actually promoted people. I, I challenged and beaten, incumbent. I was the first Democrat in Iowa to be a statewide incumbent Republican in 36 years, I think.

[00:38:46] When I won in 2018, there were people in the office who had made campaign contributions to my predecessor, to my opponent. I promoted them, um, I promoted them to senior positions. I want people around me who disagree with me [00:39:00] because I want my thinking to be challenged. I think that’s healthy. I think it helps me keep, keeps me from making mistakes.

[00:39:06] I also think it helps us continue to focus on the right. , you know, a certain point if you, if the only people in the room are the people who are all concerned with the wellbeing of, for example, the same political party, someone might say, well, what about the party? When, at the, at the end of the day, like the question in the state honors office doesn’t have anything to do with what about the party?

[00:39:25] It shouldn’t, frankly, it shouldn’t, that shouldn’t be the question in any office. And so to me, like I think having people around who aren’t gonna go into the ballot booth and vote the exact same way I am is a good thing for my decision making. Um, I also like, I tried to, I, I maintained friendships with people who are more conservative to me than me, or, or frankly, just think differently.

[00:39:52] Doesn’t have to be on the pretend left to right spectrum cuz we know there’s lots of different spectrums. Um, we had a cross party [00:40:00] endorsement list that probably was one of the bigger ones in the country. We had over 30 conservative libertarian Republican leaders across Iowa who endorsed my reelection.

[00:40:10] Many of them, uh, I know personally, but a lot of them really had just met me and maybe heard me speak once or twice. and that, and that for them was like, okay, like this guy’s doing things differently. This isn’t politics 

[00:40:26] as usual. 

[00:40:27] Hillari Lombard: So what does the Democratic Party mean to you? Like, I mean, you do, you are a 

[00:40:32] Democrat, 

[00:40:33] you’re not an 

[00:40:33] independent or. 

[00:40:34] Rob Sand: Yeah, it’s funny cuz I was talking about this with a good friend of mine yesterday. I’m proud of my beliefs, I’m proud of my values. I’m proud of including among them my, my willingness to revisit them. Right?

[00:40:50] Hillari Lombard: Mm-hmm. 

[00:40:51] Rob Sand: And to me a guy who grew up in a small town who. Whose, [00:41:00] whose, uh, religious faith is important to him? Who likes to hunt and fish? Like a lot. Who, who, who’s fiscally focuses on fiscal responsibility?

[00:41:10] You know, I had formative experiences that made me think that. The Democratic Party was a better fit given two choices, right? I remember watching when I was like 16, bill Clinton in the State of the Union brag about balancing the budget and paying down the debt. And I was like, sweet, thank you. Because I don’t wanna pay for what my parents are doing, you know?

[00:41:32] Um, and so that was something where I was like, all right, point for point for a Democrat on that one. Um, I tend to, As someone who wants to have clean water to go fishing in and wants to have like, you know, uh, a healthy, uh, environment to be hunting in that Democrats do a decent job of protecting those things a, a better job.

[00:41:53] And so if I get, you know, two choices on things, I I on a lot of them, I’m, I am pro-choice. I think a woman should have the right to [00:42:00] choose what happens. Um, there’s a lot of issues where, Agree with Democrats on, again, given this sort of false choice, you can only pick A or B dichotomy, 

[00:42:15] right? 

[00:42:17] Hillari Lombard: So what does a healthier government look like to you? 

[00:42:19] Rob Sand: Well, you said the word team arrivals. I mean, 

[00:42:24] Lincoln’s willingness to bring in people, who were, who belonged in different parties even, and who were real leaders in those parties. Um, that’s a sign of healthiness, um, Teddy Roosevelt’s willingness to challenge the status quo. , um, and to push, uh, against people in positions of trust and power.

[00:42:45] When they abuse that trust and power, that’s a sign of a healthy environment. But I also think a piece of it is just, I, I, I’m a believer that leadership matters, and I’m a believer that when we, um, [00:43:00] have antagonistic bile spewing leaders, That we end up as an antagonistic, bile spewing society to some degree.

[00:43:13] It’s, it’s inevitable because what we, we see that, and then it’s reflected. So to me, you know what a better system is? Number one, the will of the people, people who get elected should, um, serve. And people who lose should say they lost.

[00:43:29] Um, you, you wanna have a system where people respect the rules of the game. You wanna have a system where, They, they, again, to go back to what we were talking about earlier, see and acknowledge that the people they disagree with are human beings, who, although they’re so in insanely wrong about this issue, doesn’t mean they’re wrong about everything, right?

[00:43:50] And, and who, and who, by the way, are not necessarily beyond redemption on this or any other issue. So you might wanna be nice to them just for the [00:44:00] sake of thinking that at some point in the future you could possibly maybe convince them to join you to do 

[00:44:04] good in the 

[00:44:04] world. 

[00:44:05] Hillari Lombard: right? They’re also not beyond 

[00:44:06] Rob Sand: uh, yeah, they’re not beyond persuasion.

[00:44:09] I mean, they might be on Persua beyond persuasion on this issue today, but that doesn’t mean that they’re beyond persuasion on it a year from now. And it also doesn’t mean that you couldn’t persuade them on some other issue as long as you’re not shouting at them about how they’re a terrible person because they disagree with you on one issue.

[00:44:23] Um, I just, I don’t know. Dunno, I, I’m, I’m so frustrated with where we are, but I, again, a lot of this I do think comes from the top and we have a system. The, the book that I wanna recommend to all of you dear listeners, is the Politics Industry by Catherine Gal and Michael Porter. I mean, it really describes the way the system right now does not work, and both parties actually have an incentive to not solve problems because they want to be able to continue to campaign on them.

[00:44:53] Hillari Lombard: Hmm. 

[00:44:54] Rob Sand: And so we have this duopoly and it’s a market analysis. Again, let’s go back to the things that Anne Smith wanted to talk [00:45:00] about. When you only have two choices, Both of those choices recognize all I gotta do is convince you the other one is worse than me and then you’ll be stuck with me. Haha. And they’re quite satisfied to have you stuck with them as opposed to truly wanting them and choosing them.

[00:45:16] Does that make 

[00:45:16] sense?

[00:45:16] Hillari Lombard: Yeah, especially on like some of our most controversial issues like immigration, it’s like you don’t actually have to have a plan to fix it. You just have to say the other side’s 

[00:45:25] plan is 

[00:45:26] bad. 

[00:45:27] Rob Sand: Yes. That’s actually one of the examples that they hold up in, um, in the politics industry. So we need to have a system that I think gives us as voters a better opportunity to hold people accountable. I want people in Ruby Red Districts to be able to elect better Republicans, right? Just like people that are like, I think the vast majority of people are like, no, I want everyone to be treated decently.

[00:45:56] The problem is every time I get to the general election, it’s a Democrat [00:46:00] versus a Republican, and I really care about all of these issues. And so I don’t get a, I don’t get to choose someone who’s nicer. And the problem then is, you know that they sound squishier maybe in a primary, but if you can get to the general, then you can have someone who imagine this a rate choice system in a super. Let’s say a super democratic district and you have the Democrat in there who’s kind of a bully and treats people rudely. And then you have a, another democrat who’s running, who’s like, Hey, I’m, I agree with this person on the issues, but I think that, you know, we shouldn’t be jerks to each other cuz it actually makes it harder for us to solve our problems.

[00:46:39] And then you have the republican, um, in a ranked choice system, you know, uh, depend, it depends on what the breakdown is of how partisan the system is, but, Those Republicans will have the opportunity to vote for the Republican to say, look, I, I am a Republican and I want, I wanna support this person, but also as my second choice, I want someone who will respond [00:47:00] to my emails and acknowledge the fact that I’m a human being.

[00:47:03] And so they, for their second choice, they’ll have the freedom to express that part of themselves to say, okay, yeah, I’m a Republican, but also I’m a believer in kindness. And so if I can’t get a Republican, I at least want a 

[00:47:13] Democrat that is a decent person. 

[00:47:15] Hillari Lombard: right? Which you would 

[00:47:16] Rob Sand: So, 

[00:47:17] Hillari Lombard: absolute 

[00:47:17] floor 

[00:47:18] Rob Sand: Yeah. Well, 

[00:47:20] again, like we are, we are crammed into this system where you can be a single issue voter because you only have two choices.

[00:47:28] And sometimes those issues, by the way, they’re not even policy questions. 

[00:47:32] Hillari Lombard: What do you 

[00:47:33] Rob Sand: just like, well, I think we need change. And so that guy, he’s never been in politics before, so he, he definitely won’t do things the way they’re su quote unquote supposed to be done, which 

[00:47:41] doesn’t seem to be working too great. 

[00:47:43] Hillari Lombard: That’s also such a trigger for me though. I hate the idea that we’re like, this isn’t working. We should pick someone that’s never done anything like this 

[00:47:50] Rob Sand: Yeah. Most. Yeah, you’re not, you’re not wrong. You’re not wrong. Uh, that’s a, that’s a fair point to make. 

[00:47:57] Hillari Lombard: So you have just won reelection, [00:48:00] knock on wood. Um, what does the next term look like for you? 

[00:48:04] Rob Sand: I want to get the Pride program to the point where like, people. See it and expect it and it is like a thing that is getting done, you know, I want to continue to expand it and see it grow. The state of Mississippi has copied it, by the way, like that’s how good the program is going. The state auditor in Mississippi down there, shout out to Shad White, um, saw the program.

[00:48:28] It was like, Hey, can I, you know, copy this? I was like, yeah. So there’s a PIE program, same 

[00:48:34] name in Mississippi now. 

[00:48:35] Hillari Lombard: would you say that he 

[00:48:36] Rob Sand: Um, 

[00:48:36] Hillari Lombard: of 

[00:48:36] the pie?

[00:48:38] Rob Sand: Oh, I will now. I didn’t just then, but I will say that now. Um, I would like to get some of our smaller cities to have their public accounts, their, their, their public bank accounts available online very quickly, just as a way to reduce the [00:49:00] temptation, uh, for civil servants to steal. Um, and I wanna just keep pushing the idea of anti partisanship through both the way I lead the office, but also, um, you know, advocacy for a system that allows us to be a little bit less beholden, a little bit less forced, like square pegs into round holes and round pegs into 

[00:49:23] square holes. 

[00:49:25] Hillari Lombard: All right. Well I think that that is an excellent place to wrap it up. Rob, thank you so much for your 

[00:49:29] time. 

[00:49:30] Rob Sand: Yeah, happy to be here. Thanks for having 

[00:49:32] me, Hillari.

[00:49:32] 

[00:49:33] Hillari Lombard: All right guys. That’s it for this conversation, Don’t forget to like rate and review this podcast wherever you’re listening. I know that you’ve probably heard this a dozen times because you probably listened to other podcasts, but it does actually help this podcast move up in the algorithm and that helps people find us.

[00:49:47] Being a moderate can be lonely. Sometimes being politically homeless can be even lonelier, and we just wanna make sure that those people don’t have to be lonely alone. That’s it for me guys. I will see you next week. [00:50:00] Bye.

[00:50:02] 

[00:50:10] .