Friday with Friends: Principles First with Julie Lombard

Julie Lombard
Moderate Party
Moderate Party
Friday with Friends: Principles First with Julie Lombard

In the first inaugural Friday with Friends episode, Hillari sits down with Julie Lombard, to discuss the Principles First Summit they attended last month. Along the way they discuss the history and future of the republican party, legacy, and what it takes to forgive. My inbox is always open! Share your thoughts, suggestions, and feedback at


Hello and welcome to moderate party, a political podcast for moderate centrists and independence. I’m your host, Hillary Lombard. And today I have with me a very special guest Julie Lombard, who is my aunt. Hello, Julie went with me to the principal’s first conference in Washington, DC last month. So I thought that it would be an ex.

Opportunity to finally bring her on the show. She’s a guest that I have always wanted to have. And ironically, it’s very difficult to book in spite of us being related. But I thought that it would be a great time , to get her on the show and to just kind of talk about the conference, talk about the Republican party and dive into what the future of both looks like.

So that’s what we’re going to be going over today. Let’s get started,



Julie. Thank you for being on the show. It’s weird to call you by your first

name. Thank you for having me. It’s it’s okay. If you call me Julie, it’s also okay. If you call me aunt Julie ,


Before we get into talking about the principal’s first conference and what their vision of the Republican party is I think that it’s important that we establish the Republican party that exists currently and the Republican party for the past.

So what is your experience like when we like, not just, not currently, but in your childhood, what was your experience like with the Republican party?

Well, it was an interesting time also then it was the eighties and we had Gosh, my childhood, the whole ladies. Right? So the fall of the Berlin wall, we had a USSR, the fall of that also Reagan was president Margaret Thatcher was prime minister.

The I think it was like, it was actually a pretty important time as I look back. But I, as I watched you grow up Hillary and your involvement in politics, I often thought about my involvement in politics. At the same time, we were both in high school when you were in high school and you were very involved in politics and social issues and all of those things me on the other hand I can remember just spouting my mom and dad’s politics.

I think your experience is much more relatable than my experience. Most people aren’t like in the presidential debate at seven, you know, just like that’s true. I was like, I do think we should go to the middle east.

That’s right. George. It’s oh, thank you. Little girl in mammoth lakes, California. And I was like, that’s good. I think they have weapons of mass destruction. I’ve seen the news. I believe the Intel

I had a really great English teacher who asked me what I thought about something and who I would vote for. I said, Lee Iacocca, I don’t even, I don’t even know. I didn’t tell her. I didn’t even know. I was just proud because somebody, I knew somewhere said that and they were smart and they were smart.

That’s how much I knew about politics. I don’t, I don’t know him. And there was so much going on. I wish I would have been involved the way that you were because there was, it was, it was a great time, really a great time. A lot of things were happening and I just wasn’t involved. And then I joined the military and there was still a lot going on with Bosnia, just so many things, desert storm, and, and this just my view of the world was so much smaller. I was actually involved or witnessing could have been witnessing so much. It was in the you safety.

What was that?

The us air force in Europe. I was stationed at Lakenheath England and I was there for three years at, at the beginning of the nineties. Is there, there was a lot going on in desert storm. There different missions. And I just didn’t realize what was going on around me.

Why? Because I hadn’t been involved as a youth because we didn’t have the social media that we have today. We didn’t have that access to it. Our parents weren’t as involved. So what was it like, what was the Republican party like? It was strong as far as I know.

Do you think that most of the people that you knew were Republican?

Absolutely. That’s the other bit? My military is I wasn’t the first one in that our military runs strong in our family, as and for publican, everybody was,

what’s weird for me to think about just cause we have the same family is like when I was a kid, I’m not sure I knew a Democrat.

Right. Except that like school, but like in my, in our family I don’t know. ’cause. I remember when mom, when my mom and dad disagreed about the president, because mom was going to vote for a Democrat for the first time. And I, I was like a Democrat. What do you mean? And I don’t even know if I knew like what the political parties were at that point. I just knew that we were at George Bush household and I was like, who what was

it like that for you? Yes and no. I first off I grew up, my hero was Abraham Lincoln, right? The first Republican president.

And so I was going to be everything that I could be, that he was

for a second. She drew his picture. She had like trivia cards for him. she went to the Lincoln Memorial for the very first time and wept. So when she’s my hero is Abraham Lincoln. I just need you guys to know. Hard in the paint for Lincoln.

I did. I did. And still do really?

Yeah, because also on this trip, we went to the Lincoln Memorial was my first time there. It was not hers. And she literally bought trivia cards. I did. And then she was doing them in the hotel, just in case there was a quiz.

We were also I’m on a search for busts. We were bused hunters and we got Lincoln busts.

Did you get

a bust? I got a bus.

She got a buck. I got a bus to bus.

That’s true. Cause we got a little one and then we went to the museum and she saw the bigger ones. And she bought that too.

Yeah. She said, how much do you, would you put down if you see a big one? I was like all the money. All the money. Yeah.

How much is the big

one costs? That’s how much I’d put down.


exactly. So anyway, I grew up with him. Right. And gosh, I can just remember all the comparisons like Reagan was shot and like all of the different superstitions. How the comparisons and how they were like Lincoln and Kennedy, who was obviously not Republican.

So yeah, I didn’t know any Democrats. And then I joined the military and in 1992, that is when by joined in 90, but in 92, that’s when Clinton became president and he was the first Democrat.

Did you vote for him?

Absolutely. Did

how come?

He was exciting. Right. And cool. And yeah, nothing against George Bush, Sr,

Herbert Walker, but like the nerdier of the George bushes and he was

actually great.

It was great precedent as far as. Fun. As

far as fun, he was a dud Barbara a great time. As I understand it, Barbara Bush. Very fun.

And, and he was following Reagan, so it was very excited about Clinton and he was talking about issues that I was just learning about myself.

Was and how he played the sax?

No, no, it really wasn’t,

but it also think about it, like I was in England during his campaign, so I didn’t see a lot of the same things that a stateside folks did, but it was really his stance on social issues.

So having grown up Republican I joined the military, which is mostly Republican, but I’m also gay and that was not allowed obviously. And I learned a lot. I met a lot of Democrats at that point. Because most gay people were Democrats on the softball team, on the softball team. Yep. Every stereotype there was, that was me, but that’s how you would meet people.

Right. There were plenty of straight people on the softball

team too. I’m not sure about that, but shout out to the straight girl that just wanted to play second base.

This was the first time we had heard politicians speak about it.

We being gay people that I was around on softball team. Anyway, it was the first time that we were hearing a politician, make some kind of stance. And I can tell you also, this is not your question, but I can remember them floating the idea of gay marriage. And I thought that was the most ridiculous thing I had ever heard.

There is no. IN HELL, if that’s going to happen, like you’re asking too much, we’re going to fail because you’re asking for too much. And then here we are today and we actually have gay marriage, but anyway, I digress. It wasn’t until I got in the military and Clinton was running that I saw any division between the Republicans that I knew and Democrats, because I had been surrounded by Republicans.

So yeah, that’s when I became a Democrat. So you say you didn’t know any Democrats, but you knew me and that’s true. Yeah. And that’s

it. And so that’s crazy. I didn’t even really think about that. We were very close when I was young and I guess yeah, I knew you like, who would obviously be a Democrat, but I don’t, I didn’t think that

probably I probably, because I was in the military and then I was in law enforcement and those were two very Republican areas.

And that’s why she’s on

moderate party, a political podcast for mother centrists and independence.

So just circling back to that, The Republican party that you experienced when you were a kid, how similar is that to the Republican party that you experience now?

They look nothing alike except in their strength. I guess I would say when I was a youth, I thought the Republican party was very strong. I think it’s probably what drew me like into the military and into law enforcement. I liked the structure, they just Reagan and there we go, Reagan, and he just seemed like a strong character.

And I’m sure there was actually the combination of both of those military folks in my family and everything else. And then I look at the Republicans now and I do see they are they’re still a strong force to be reckoned with. Right. And I aligned with them in so many ways, but the difference. Is the spine it’s missing.

It’s absolutely missing. And it would never have said Reagan was spineless. There’s, obviously we know now lots of things that we probably don’t agree with as far as Reagan goes, but we would never say he had no spine. And that is probably the most sickening thing to me about the Republican party.

And that’s what I see is the spinelessness on any decision that they, they are running scared at the Republican party though, my youth did not run scared.



And you create a future for the Republican party without dealing with the past. I don’t think so either, but I think that they’re trying that’s what I felt that the conference and I it’s what I feel when I watch the news too, because you’ll have Mitch McConnell.

We’ll just be like, it’s, it’s kind of like in the new Testament when Jesus shows up and he’s. That was the past before. He’s I’m here now. And now we’re all about love. I feel like Mitch McConnell kind of tries to do that with the Republican party because he’s yeah, that Trump stuff like that was bad, but now we’re back to being principled and it’s I just, I don’t know that you can do that because everyone remembers it’s like they shoot their own credibility.

Yeah. And so I wonder can they start over? Because for me, could I forgive them? Right. The Mitch McConnell’s and all of those troublemakers. And my answer is yeah probably. I probably. Could if we just started over, if I could just have the Republican party back where it should be, I probably would but I don’t know those that you know, they’re actually in the trenches, the Congressman you know, the never Trumpers are feel they can forgive.

What do you think that starting over looks like

Jesus. I say that because Jesus in the explanation you were giving, he’s a new person, right? He’s not one of the past. And so he’s able to come in and say, this is, this is now, right. This is me. And we can buy that because he’s a new person. So the others, it kind of has to be just a, we have to agree to forget it. That could be the reckoning. I don’t, I don’t know if it’s possible, but there has to be an acknowledgement, I think.

And I think that that’s really difficult, especially not necessarily for the politicians, but kind of for the Trump Voters ’cause I think when you look at how we vote now, it’s all identity. We gave up church. So now we have political parties and if you’re a Trumper, you’re like make America great again, I’ve got the hat, I watch Fox news. Like I love guns. Like all of these things about you line up behind this. So for you to admit that you were wrong or that he was wrong, it like, it shakes you more than it should. It undoes you. And I think that just makes the stakes so high that to have this reckoning, what would be required is to be for people to be like I was wrong before. And I think that the stakes feel too high to do that

I think I, I guess what I meant was I think I could just forgive them if we would just all agree that we don’t talk about it again. I would be okay with that. And to me it’s we just need to all agree that. That’s the line of demarcation. If we had that, I could just move past it.

And I feel like the, the make America great hat wearing, you know, Trump white flag way or, and or whatever. It gives them a place. They don’t have to face that shame

If you watch Fox news all the time and you don’t watch something else, I think like, why wouldn’t you think that?

Fox news used to be credible, so it’s like. If the people that know that it’s not credible are the people don’t watch it So it’s if that’s what you watch all the time. Cause even if I watch, I’m like, man wow, the border is out of control. And maybe it is, but it’s just I think that you are the information that you’re fed in a lot of ways.

So we need to start some, somebody at Fox somewhere, it needs to agree that we feed them different stuff so that they don’t have to face. The shame monster, I’m feeling like we have to have a reckoning because the never Trumpers won’t accept anything less, but also we probably couldn’t move forward if we dove too deep, like literally Mitch McConnell is not my favorite person,

he’s the villain of this chest and so Kevin McCarthy came

the state.

Well, if they did an about face,


I would just be ready to move forward, you know, would just be ready to be done with that.

Well, and also like when he came out and said the election wasn’t stolen, I was like, God, bless ya. I know. And it, it didn’t, it didn’t sit right with me, but that is how I felt. I was like, oh, thank God Mitch’s here. And I’ve never felt like that.

It’s like that for me with Mitt Romney too.


Yeah. Because I was definitely not a supporter bef you know, before Trump and when he stood up to Trump, I’m like, yeah. Can he run for president? Yes. Yeah. Consider me someone in your binder full of women.

I’m no longer offended by that comment, but I think that that’s so true because I think Liz Cheney is the biggest example for me, because I disagreed with her on every policy possible. But then like when she showed true courage, I was like, This reshuffles my priority list considerably because now the most important thing to me, a politician is a spine and courage.

And like when she had those things, I was like, I guess my policy preferences are not as important as I thought, how I feel about fiscal policy and how I feel about courage are not


Well, it says a lot about you that I think if that is you, you found out those are your those are the things that are most important to you.

You know?


When we talk about the social issues and they’re huge for me, right. But I’m the same way. If I see the courage, I see the backbone, surprisingly, that is actually my number one thing. I am, I am a Democrat and I wouldn’t have voted for, for Romney. And he changed my mind, not on the social issues because we just.

But it was because he had his spine, same thing with actually let’s change. This is a great example because I thought she did do an about face on things,

took responsibility for it.

And I respect that so much.

I know me too. And I’m just like, I’ll move to Wyoming. That’s reasonable. Yeah, sure. I’ll campaign for her full time.

But I think like it’s such a good point that she did the about face because that’s how she retains credibility to me. Yeah. It’s so hard to say that you’re wrong. Especially when so many people want you to be wrong. They’re just waiting for you to be like, oh, gotcha. So like to go on 60 minutes or whatever it was and be like, Hey, I was wrong about the LGBT issue.

Like I was mean to my sister. I was not evolved enough and I’ve changed. That’s so brave. Being brave enough to say that you’re wrong goes into the courage category for me. Also on the opposite side of the political spectrum, I would say that about Hillary Clinton actually on the LGBT issue, because she said I have evolved on that issue. And that’s why yes, I did say that in the past, but I’ve evolved on the issue and I feel like

this now,

I think that’s totally human and we should all be able to relate to that. I’ve evolved on so many things for, you know, as we talk right now, Yeah, totally.

But, and I think also it’s helpful that Trump has really moved the goalposts on what offends me, it used to be a lot and now it’s the bare minimum. Things that would otherwise upset me.

I’m suddenly much less upset about.


I think like the difference that like with Cheney doing an about face that was believable to me. If Trump did an about face, I wouldn’t believe it. So that’s why I could, could really never vote for him, but there’s really nothing he could do, because nothing about him is believable. And while Cheney who is super conservative and all the way over, she could get my belt because of that, because she’s a believable.

Why do you think

she’s believable? Like, why would you I understand why you would believe Trump, like that’s, but what about Liz do you think is trustworthy?

Oh my gosh. She liked, totally put her neck on the stump, you know? And and did it again and again, and again, the truth. Yes. Yeah. Sorry. No, no, no.

That’s, that’s, that’s exactly it. I understand the family dynamics, you know, what their sister and everything, and that is hard. And that it was a thorn for quite some time, but she had the courage to say that she was wrong in that. And that’s one thing, but then literally. To put her head on the stump over and over and over just for the principle.

We have principled leaders like Liz Cheney and Mitt Romney. Right. But they’re not the most popular in the Republican party. Do you think that we can have a leader in the Republican party that is a principled leader? That can be anything besides a martyr because Liz Cheney, she took a principled stance. She put her neck on the stump and she was ripped out of leadership. And now they don’t know if she’s going to win her primary. Like she could probably win her election, but maybe not her primary. And then you have Mitt Romney, who’s getting booed and called a trader and people are following him around the airport.

And then Adam Kinzinger. Just announced that he won’t seek reelection either. And these are the people that took the principled stances. And if you look at the number of people that voted yes on impeachment that are Republican, the majority of them are not going to run for reelection. So the narrative that you see unfolding in the press is that you take a principled stand and then you lose.

here’s Joe Walsh, the former Congressman from.

If Trump runs again in 24. The nomination is his. We all know that. Um, and no one will challenge him. Larry Hogan. Great man. It doesn’t have a prayer Mitt Romney. Great man. It doesn’t have a prayer to win the nomination in that party in 24, if Trump runs, he won’t be challenged to Barbara’s other point.

Trump is a cancer. Trump’s not the cancer in the party.

Trump ism is the cancer. It’s metastasized. Way beyond him. And again, I know I’m going to, I’m a dark Irishman. Y’all gonna throw something at me before we’re out of here. And maybe I’m maybe my vantage point is skewed. Because I hear from these.

People every day. Um, It’s not.

It’s not changing. The fever’s not breaking any time soon. To everything miles and Barbara say that we need to do to support the good guys, the good gals, Liz Cheney. Wonderful. God, I hope she wins.

I don’t think there’s any way she can win a Republican primary in that state. I hope she does. My good friend, Adam Kinzinger is not running again. Uh, Adam couldn’t have survived. Uh,

public and party primary. If he will run and everybody in this room would help him as what I.

But we we’ve got to also be. Wake up and be realistic.


Do you think that it is possible to have a principal leader in the Republican party that we have right now? That is anything besides a martyr?

I don’t think I, I would say I don’t think right now, because I do think that is what’s happening. We’ll have to have enough markers first, sadly, but those people are moving it forward, you know?

And they’re clearing the way for the person, whoever it is that comes forward out of the Republican party that actually wins and gets the vote. And it can’t happen without the sacrifice. But it was other good principled people, which kind of goes

to what Heath Mayo was saying. Heath Mayo is the organizer for the principal’s first conference.

And he opened it by saying that sometimes you have to be brave enough to lose.

When I think about people like Liz Cheney, Adam Kinzinger Denver, Riggleman the people that we have speaking to David tomorrow. Jeff Duncan, all of, all of our panelists is that everyone in this room is unafraid, right? Fearless unafraid to speak the truth. I’m afraid to go into rooms that are uncommitted.

And say the hard things and unafraid to lose

always about what pulls the best or what you can sell for a principal’s first leader. A principal’s first year is not afraid to say what needs saying no matter what the consequences are at the, at the polling booth, whatever it is that. And that I, I can’t say enough about how inspiring it is to be in a room of people who are truly, truly just afraid and fearless to say what they believe.

Even in this room, we disagree, we can disagree. We’re not afraid to disagree. We don’t all have to be seeing the same tune to know that at the end of the day we are here because we love our country.

Yeah. I would agree with you that I think we’re going to need a lot of people to jump on the grenade before to take the fear out of it. I think because right now what you’ll hear people say is oh, everybody hates Trump behind the scenes.

But then in the same breath, they’ll go back out and be like, I love him. And he’s so brave. And this is why all, because they’re so afraid of him, but even worse I think is that they’re afraid of his voters. And I think that that’s so much scarier because that’s that’s outgrown him as a risk.

And now we’re looking at there. I do think the Republican party is afraid of its own voters. Yeah. And that’s terrifying. Yeah. Because then it’s bigger than them. I personally think that a principle movement can be born of the Republican party, but it can’t exist within the current Republican party, at least right now, the people that would martyr those that are trying to take the principled stance that we’re talking about. That’s the base. So what do you do? I mean, what do Republicans do that, that was definitely one of the biggest questions at the summit, whether or not. Traditional Republicans or traditional conservatives should stay in Trump’s Republican party and try to fix it or leave, and either vote for a Democrat or try to create a third party. And the group was pretty divided.

Here’s Joe Walsh again, and Barbara boxer, the former Congresswoman from Virginia. I think that they both argued there. I think that they both really crushed their side of the argument on this topic. Check it out.

Should we stay or should we go? I have no idea what they’re both going to say. Um, to me, this is simple. Uh, and to me we’re a year or two or three too late. Uh, to me all due respect to Heath and principles first, I don’t know why the hell we’re even asking that question anymore. Stay where. Stay where. Look, I, uh, I I’m in a weird spot because, uh, Unlike these two. Uh, I CA I voted for Trump in 2016. I come from the megabase. And because I come from that. The GOP.

And make no mistake that Trump base the mega base. That is the Republican party base right now. That’s the world I come from and I hear from hundreds. Sometimes thousands of these voters every day, still. And I want to tell ya. The vast majority of them are gone. I don’t care what Mitch McConnell says. I don’t care what any Republican in Washington says. The Republican party base is gone.

Almost completely, uh, should we stay in the repo?

Looking party. I don’t believe this Republican party will change in my lifetime. It’s sad if Trump were gone tomorrow, how awesome would that be? If Donald Trump were gone to my role.

Nothing’s changing. For the party. The train is going down the track. If Trump’s gone tomorrow, the Republican party nominee in 2024 is going to be Ron DeSantis probably, or it’s going to be somebody who’s even Trump here than Ron DeSantis. Most definitely. No matter again. What Mitch McConnell or Kevin?

McCarthy or any of these guys say, this is where the voters in the party are. Hell no, you all of us. Shouldn’t stay in that.

Well, if Donald Trump disappeared tomorrow, I honestly don’t think there would be many of my former Republican colleagues or elected in the search party. I think that is. It’s a hostage situation for many Republicans. I mean, I am still a Republican. I say I’m, I’m Catholic and I’m a Republican.

And I have a faith that’s a little bit y’all. I’ve got some problems. I’ve got a party, that’s got some problems I’m sticking with both of them.

I was reading a quote from Tamora . Kava who has a key resident. And she said, quote, it’s my country. And I am not the one who should leave. The Russians are the ones that should leave.

No. That’s true. There, and it’s also true, I think for our party. I was a Republican actually did. Uh, my first panel I ever did, um, for here at the national press club was when we were working on impeachment of bill Clinton. Uh, back in those days, Donald Trump was writing checks to bill Clinton and Chuck Schumer, the Clintons. Um, he was, uh, against impeachment, not just because of the sex portion of the impeachment, but he just didn’t want him to be a patient at all. He was inviting bill and Hillary to the, to the wedding.

Right. Do there. There is wedding to Milania. He was for partial birth abortion. He was, um, for raising taxes, not lowering them. So these are all I was fighting against all of those things. I’m going to be damned if I’m going to be run out of town about, of my party by a New York Democrat, who’s just an opportunist.

Selfishly thinking about legacy. Cause you know, I like to. Mitt Romney. I don’t know what it is like for him in Utah or whatever, and what he’s done with his career. But the thing that I remember him for is his mentorship, his, his spine, he has standing up. So if you want to make your mark on the world, because America leads the world, then you stand up to Trump.

Yeah. Might be the end of your career, but it would be the most important thing you did with it, you know, and maybe if you hadn’t done that, then you could kick around, you know, and be a Congressman or be a whatever elected, whatever, for several more years doing on remarkable things, on legacy defining things.

And actually to, to go down as someone who stood for principle is a good way to go. And it’s, it’s the thing that I’ll remember. And I’m sure that there’ll be a lot of people that do, and the ones that don’t more remember.,

Adam Kinzinger said something similar, when asked, like why did he vote the way he did on impeachment? why has he been so steadfast about the election not being stolen? And he says that it’s because he knows the moment that we’re living in is going to be a social studies book and that he’s his son or daughter is going to come home and ask what did you do?

And he wants to be able to say the right thing.


I got to tell you what this country, no doubt is at a crossroads. There’s no doubt. Ukraine is at a crossroads. Ukraine’s crossroads is a little more physical. It’s a little more obvious and it’s way more violent but we’re at a crossroads in this country. I know you all know this. I knew it too, but there was a day that I kind of had the realization that it wasn’t just a crossroads. It was the fight of our lives. I want to tell you a little about that day. That was January six. 2021. I I also knew what every one of you know, instinctly, which is when we want to do democracy, when we want. I have self-governance there was only one basic contract that has to exist. That if you vote, it will count. And that the count the vote will be accurate. The counting will be accurate. When you have a leader of the free world. That stands in front of America and convinces half the country that the system is broken. That your vote doesn’t count. Listen, as, as patriotic Americans.

We can understand why some would say then it is time to overthrow government by force. If I truly believe that the election system in this. The tree was rigged. By Satan worshiping pedophiles who drink baby’s blood.

I don’t think I’d go peacefully into the night either. Which is why leader’s words matter so much. If God had not been on our side, it would have been a very. Very different day. But I remember calling my wife on the phone and I had.

Just, you know, Like disbelief. It reminded me a lot of, of. You know, moments in war. And I just felt something I’ve only felt maybe.

Twice in my entire life, a dark. Kind of evil presence and I’m not one of these people that walks around syncing evil everywhere. Okay. But that moment, I just said, this is wrong. This is gross. This is terrible. And of course after that everybody said the right thing and it only took a few weeks.

For that, those stars, that idea of power, that idea of adulation and, and.

And applause to take over. And if we, as Republicans would have just simply taken a full accounting for what happened, taking responsibility, we could have moved on.

We could have determined, nothing like that. Whatever happened again in the United States. And instead we try to sweep it under the rug. Well, it’s not going to get swept under the rug. The truth is out Because whether or not you or your friends want to know the truth. Your kids do and their kids do. And the next generation does. And Americans in a hundred years deserve to know the truth. Because we will not be the first generation in American history. That leaves our kids a country worse off than the one we inherited. We refuse to.

I think one thing that affects us as a society is that we stopped thinking longterm, like everything is short-sighted victory shortcuts to the shortcuts, to that. That prevents people from thinking about legacy, like you’re talking about, because I think as soon as you do, it’s like, oh God, oh no.

If I was out here taking these votes to get money or taking voting against what I thought was right. Like some of them truly have been egregious votes. And when you take them, you’re just like, nothing’s going to happen. But we had COVID Warren Ukraine, a coup on the U S Capitol. This is going in the book, like the time we’re living in right now, that’s going to make it in the book and you don’t want to be John C. Calhoun or like Andrew Jackson, you know, but like you’re going to be, and I think that they can’t possibly be thinking about legacy because it’s not going to be like, yeah.

But Trump really loved me. So it’s not like he’s going to age well. So when they’re like grandpa. What did you do during this time? I made sure Donald Trump was so in love with me, that would be like, what did you do? Oh, I made sure Adolf Hitler was so happy.

No, I just think that is so true though, because I remember how people would think that this is been a great time for America. And it’s been great to line up with Trump.

Are you implying? We didn’t make America great again.

I’m definitely implying. Don’t make America. We’ve made America a bit of a bit of a laughingstock.

Well, there’s, there’s still time that campaign slogan is still applicable. We can just keep using it until we do it.

we’re going to take a quick break, but we’ll be right back after this.


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But you were talking about how we’re thinking in. Short-term not long-term and I think the world is because we lead the world, the world could turn to that too.

And that’s not good because all of our big problems, they need long-term solutions.

I think that’s a problem, a problem.

. It’s like politics or fast food, you know? I know it’s not healthy. Oh,

I would even see that doomsday scenario and raise. Which is that I think that China’s strength comes from their ability to think long-term because they’re not thinking about, and even the people, not just the politicians, but they’re not necessarily thinking about their individual happiness.

They’re thinking about the preservation of China, but like the strength of China. And then we’re over here, yeah. All attack the first black woman running for the, or for the Supreme court, because I need to be reelected next year. Oh good. And as a side note, it’s crazy to me that some politicians think if they don’t attack the first black woman to run for the Supreme court, they might not get reelected South Carolina, you need to reflect

there’s a reason that Lindsey Graham thinks that he can win off of that clip, running that he’s going to get money. And a claim, I guess, for attacking her the fact that he’s doing that and that he thinks that that’s what voters want, but he thinks that he will benefit from looking like a dog off of a train well, and I think that that, that plays a part in the principal conversation too, because I think that it’s like, we need to remember the principles matter.

We, as a people, not we as politicians. Cause I think that Ukraine is a great example because I think that when you look at Mitt Romney, right, and his vote on impeachment, I think sometimes our leaders lead us and sometimes our leaders need to be led. And I think that Ukraine is an example of our leaders needing to be led by us.

Like we have put in Selenski we have put pressure on them to do more. We, the people like we, the people have raised $60 million because we care we’re watching. Like it we’re willing to sacrifice that message is getting up to our elected. ’cause at first, they were like, here’s some sanctions. And we said, no, not enough, not enough.

And I think that like with principals, I really don’t know. I don’t know if we need to be led or if we need to lead them or they need to lead us. But I think that there is a serious decay as a society we’ve become so obsessed with how to get ahead or like your own personal success that we’ve stopped thinking long-term to your point about our society’s success.

And I think there’s no better example than COVID with masks is we’re thinking about our individual, right. To not wear one as opposed to our, or everybody else’s individual. Right. Not to get COVID and die. It’s for selfish. Yeah. And I think that we used to take such pride in solidarity, like that was like.

They used to say you better not like anger, the American people cause then you’re really screwed once we all agree, you know, what does that look like? And I think I think there’s some, we’re seeing the, the echo of that in Ukraine is if we all agree you’re in trouble. I think Putin is in trouble because right now we all agree.

But it’s it’s not what it used to be like. Cause before when politics was boring back in the day, I wasn’t alive. Neither was she. But it’s if you said something agregious, you would lose your election, you would not gain fundraising dollars. There used to be things that would be political suicide.

That’s like a phrase that I know oh, that’s political suicide. I didn’t inhale. Yeah. I did not have sexual relations with that. Yeah, and he did, and we were mad, but you know, and it’s just now we love it

because, because it’s sensationalism.

I think we have not gotten our hands around the problem of proud of corruption. So covert corruption is a very old problem and we have systems for it. And all of them assume that people would actually be ashamed if somebody found out about their corrupt. You know, that assumption is clearly incorrect, um, because there is a world of people right now who when faced with their own corruption are, first of all, don’t don’t make any attempt, you know, um, uh, Donald Trump tried to extort the president of Ukraine in.

Right. It wasn’t a, there wasn’t anything, there was the famous phone call, which was not public, but when that phone call came out, he reiterated it and had in public, there was nothing hidden about it. There was nothing quiet. It was nothing to shame. And all of these systems that we have for managing corruption assume ultimately, that people have to face.

And there’s this assumption that if we reveal this stuff, uh, well, that will diminish their capacity for the election. And then somebody comes along. And it Says, yes, I’m, you know, I’m going to give part is to the people who, uh, uh, are loyal to me, I’m going to dangle them in public so that they don’t cooperate with a federal investigator.

And you’re not going there. You’re going to love me more because of this and he’s not wrong.


I think Ukraine is such an interesting study because in leadership actually this time period is because you’re talking about Americans.

You know, we’re leading our politicians a little bit right now and the opposite is true in Ukraine. He is leading his people. And we’re seeing an example of both. I’m not saying which one’s better necessarily right now, but you create Ukraine needs what they need Zelinsky, for sure. Yeah. And if they were not United, they’d have been rolled over by now.

Like their success is definitely coming from their solidarity there being United and also American’s leading our politicians. We’ve got, as we’re sending things to them to shoot those, shoot the planes down and everything else. And they think it’s just such an, an interesting dynamic, because these are two different, two opposite ends of that leadership spectrum.

And we’re seeing both of them.

Whenever there’s a big disaster, I know that people like to shit on everybody. That’s like putting up their Instagram posts or trying to get involved. But I really think that that is the heart of America.

That’s the part of America that I feel really proud of is that like when something is really. Individual people in your neighborhood are giving money or trying to do something when we see a problem, we try to do something. I think that that is uniquely American. And part of it comes from the arrogance of being American because of it.

Yeah. And, but it’s not a bad thing. It’s like when we see a problem, we’re like, oh yes, hi Hillary, in Sacramento, I can do something about that. Not only can I, I must. And I’m just like, oh, America. I’m like, are you arrogant? Little bastards, but I’m also like, I love that. Like that, that is our brand is like, if we see a problem, we believe that we not just can do something, but must do it because that is the call.

Cause like we, I think that we, as a country believe that we are called to action. That’s the reason that we’re the biggest is that we are called to act. And I think that that trickles down to. You and me? Yes. And whoever is listening, it’s we feel that we can do something. So we do it. And I don’t think that it’s like that everywhere.

China’s a good example part. That’s a country that I don’t know that their people feel empowered or that they have that they’re in a position to make an individual change like that.

I don’t think they have the arrogance that we do the passion to, to make changes because I don’t think they know that they can. Hong Kong is a good example. The teachers, the Chinese people that they cannot do anything about their state because their state of things, because in Hong Kong, they tried to, and they got put down.

Whereas in America, we think that we can do something. And if one of our movements could put down, then another one pops up right behind it.

So I think we’ve established that our shared view of the current Republican party, not necessarily the people, but at least the politicians is not particularly favorable.

Correct? Yeah. So that’s the experience that you took into the principal’s first summit with you? Right? Factor bag with that little baggage went in. Do you think that the principals first summit reinforced that or. Broke that for you, that perception of Republicans,

It reminded me of the Republicans of old that I grew up with. That was the party with a spine. Remember? Huh? With the spine. Yes, absolutely. And it, I know this sounds absolutely crazy, but you and I are always so present when we’re all in. Right. We’re all in. And when I was there, I was seeing, it’s why I think I was so inspired really, is it because it felt familiar to me and I was inspired.

I I felt helpful because these are people that were speaking about principles. They cared about their same principles I care about. And truly, I think their principles, everyone cares about there are Democrats in the room actually, and I can tell you that if I was in a room full of the mega Republicans, I, I would, I would’ve felt so physically uncomfortable. Yeah. Like I say,

it feels scary.

But I didn’t feel that at all, at this meeting, I felt so inspired.

I was like, do I need to join the Republican party so I can vote for the right people to get into the Republican party or to get into the, you know, to the right elections and, and support. That’s how all in I felt. And so comforted and familiar, it felt so familiar and safe, actually safe.


I did, I felt safe. I felt like I could say. What I really think about an issue. I raised my hand ask a question and I felt like I could do that in a room of people that I knew probably didn’t agree with me on everything, but I felt safe that they would respect my question and engage in good faith with me.

I didn’t think anybody would be like shouting me down or anything like that, but also safe in a larger sense. Cause like it made me feel safer like in America or safer, like when I think about our future, I feel like our future is safe in a room like

this. Yeah. , me too. One of the speakers in the session. The rule of law, one of the panelists talked about the constitution and the founding fathers and so forth and talked about how we were. To argue and to fight things out, obviously not with rocks in the playground, but to debate.

And we were built that way and that fighting and arguing is good for us. I thought, I thought that was great. It was, it was really great to hear. We just need to relearn how to fight

Dara dot talks about how you negotiate the non-negotiable, that’s all we do. That’s what we do. We disagree on trade policy. If we disagree on whether or not Russia and Ukraine is a threat. And I agree, it’s very scary that if we disagree the proper place to have those disagreements is in our institutions in debating them, not trying to push people out and de-legitimizing them and the, both the right and the left the bonus.

So they’ve been doing it for a very long time. It was a very concerning. Because it says that we see politics as a means to an end. I think we need to embrace a more and more classical notion of political thinking that dates back to the way our founders thought about politics, the way people like leave it all about politics.

And she cast the very principle of stepping into the arena and seven to the arena fighting for what we believe in, but to do so without trying to be legitimize and push out those who disagree with.



I just had a guest on Michael it’s the episode that aired right before this.

And I was asking him about democracy versus authoritarianism. And he was saying like, democracy has a lot of problems because we’re free enough to talk about them. It’s it’s not that Russia and China don’t have problems. Instead, if you try to bring them up in Russia and China, you’re

in danger, danger,

danger, danger.

But I think that that’s important to remember is we have a lot of problems because we’re free enough to talk about them. Whereas, if we were in Russia, we can’t even talk about the fact that there’s a war right now. Right. Let alone protest it in front of the white house, in a safe place.

But we have forgotten how to fight because now we are literally in the playground with rocks. Yeah.

Throwing rocks. Yeah. It’s threatening to hear it opinion. That’s not yours. It is

as, you know, cause our families are the same family. I grew up surrounded by Republicans. Right. And that includes my uncles and we don’t speak anymore. We’re pretty much wrote them. And my brother, older brother one of them I’m still speaking with and the other one, I’m not we’re that divided.

We stopped learning how to have. It’s just fights and those fights were not healthy. They weren’t had in a healthy way. We stopped fighting. Well, we stopped fighting the way the founding fathers intended this to, and we went to fisticuffs right away.

We’re learning how to get past a fight. but I think sometimes you should get in a fight about politics. Cause like I believe in it a lot, I believe in certain things enough that I think you should get in a fight over it.

I think that you should, after that fight, get over it or they, you should figure out how to move past it.

Yeah, exactly. And that is what that panelists was talking about at the principal’s first summit, is that exactly that we should be able to have those debates and talk about what’s really important to us and then get past it and we aren’t.

One of the things that I found very thrilling about being at that conference was that we were in a room full of people that did not agree. And that was like electric to me. It made me realize that the value of being around people, you don’t agree with.

I make a point cause I work with a political spectrum and I tried to solicit what they have to say. I disagree with, but sometimes it really pisses me off. But when we were in that room, I was like, I would love to see a debate unfold right now because I believe everybody would be engaging in good faith or constructively, arguing what they believe in for the experience of the argument or for a constructive solution not to kill each other. Yes. And that just made me realize how few forums in everyday American life people have for that.

Especially now with COVID because the only people that you see really are your family and you pretty much know how they stamps

and then you self deter.

Yeah. But like true. I think, especially not just with COVID, but with assholes, because I think that assholes also ruin this experience because then everyone’s afraid to put themselves out there. And like the people that aren’t afraid, spoiler alert are the loud assholes on either side that want to shout down other opinions.

But it’s what you really need is you need the quiet people to be a little bit more vocal.


I think there’s two sides to that. You know, there are some that they don’t want to fight. I I’m personally more willing to fight, but I’m also exhausted. Right. There’s part of me. That’s just I’ve, you know, I’ve been active before and I just I don’t want to say it’s not, it’s not that I’m lazy.

But I don’t want to duke it out. I don’t want to discuss it on Facebook. I don’t necessarily want to engage in the conversations that you just said that you look for because I’m so tired of it for the fighting. And I don’t, that’s bad shame on me, shame on me for that shame,

her listeners shades


If I could have truly, if I had these conversations with Jeff and my brother, Jeff, your uncle, Jeff. He’s great. He’s actually disagrees with me politically on many things. He said, I think an independent he’s an

aggressive libertarian that yeah, there we go.

But I love talking to him.

I truly loved talking to him. He’s intelligent, he’s educated on the issues and it is safe to talk to him because he’s truly interested in what I have to say. Because both want to learn actually, truly. Yeah. And, and that’s the difference in my family that we don’t talk to anymore get too personal.

And that’s why I don’t see myself ever re-engaging with them. Cause they turned those political conversations into personal attacks on my gayness and, and whatever else. And those are things I can’t get past because apparently they were problems all along. And I just didn’t. But I do want to be able to get past it with other people and I just need to find the energy for that.

Well, and I think like one thing that I would say about you that I personally really, really admire and aspire to is that I feel like your position in most arguments, in spite of what you’ve just said is changed my mind. That’s not what you say, but I think that you always approach a conversation willing to have your mind changed.

At least with politics, like obviously you’re not going to be talked out of being a lesbian, like nobody has an argument that persuasive contrary to men of the nineties. But I think that I do think that you approach conversations. Like this is what I think, but I could be swayed. And I think that that’s really, really valuable..

Like that’s why I enjoy talking to you so much.

Wrapping this up final question. We recently went to DC together. Oh my girl. And it was the best trip was so fun. What was your favorite part?

All of it, but the inspiration of the place, it was everywhere. Our freedom ring everywhere we went. Oh my gosh. Here’s the actual best incident. It was so cold. Also you guys, and that doesn’t sound fun to you, but to us in California, where it’s never cold in the little place that we lived, it was cold there and I loved it.


how many jackets did you bring

up? Two, three, not short


site. Anyway. So we walked 10 miles the first day. Yup. And we made it over to the Lincoln Memorial via the world war II. Amazing monument and we get over there to the Lincoln Memorial and we do our thing and it’s as magnificent as it always is.

And then we went to get our hot chocolate and I hear a ruckus in the trees. And what is

it? And Hillary, I don’t know, Angela, what is it? A bald

Eagle, a bald Eagle. It’s like

right above us, like America, like America for your most wringing freedom was where did we see

it? That at the Lincoln Memorial? Oh my gosh.

In Washington, DC. The capital of our country. Oh my God.

Yeah. Yeah. It, and it was like that moment, the whole time we were there, granted there was a lot going on. So we were standing at Martin Luther King’s monument when it was announced that the black, the first black Supreme court justice will be, was nominated.

That was powerful. And then Ukraine was happening and we’re eating lunch. Yeah. Several Ukrainians walk by with a flagging Hilary. And I just looked at each other and tried not to weep

didn’t succeed. I did cry in this cafe because everyone started clapping as

you do for these. Oh my gosh. Right? Yeah. So the whole place was just, and I’ve been there several times and I’m usually in love with the place it was especially.

So this time, partly because of you, Hillary, there’s so much fun. We’re both full on, full on tourists, right? Plus also.

The level of patriotism we’re expressing right now is a modicum of what we had in DC. Like we were like, what’s left America. What’s right. America, up America down America.

Can we take it all


Yeah. Wait, wait, wait,

wait. Literally Hillary was taking things out of her suitcase. She left her pajamas. She left different things just so we could make space for all of our trinkets,

for our souvenirs. It’s true. That’s true.


All right. Well, on that note, I am so thankful that you came on the show.

I hope you come back again. Listeners. You’ll have to let me know if you enjoyed this conversation as much as we did. You can fire those emails off to Let me know. That’s it for this episode. So stay safe, bye guys. Bye.







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